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最後の投稿 - ページ#930

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Dorsai6
Joined in Apr 2013
3459 投稿

Decoding models.lst

iStripperに関する全て
October 25, 2019, 40 アンサー
@elfine

The fact you are looking into a file to search some information or just to know to what this correspond is usually called Data mining,

Data mining may include reverse engineering the format of a data file, but reverse engineering is a distinct activity that may be performed for other purposes as well.

@Wyldanimal

I agree with you, but arguing by analogy doesn't always work.

Can you open and Read a BOOK?
is that reverse engineering or hacking the Book?

If you analyze an author's style for the purpose of writing a new story featuring characters created by that author, that is probably the equivalent to hacking and may be a ***** of copyright law.

@TheEmu

Data mining is a different activity altogether and is applied to the process of getting nuggets of information from huge data repositories.

Well, to quibble if you are data mining a collection of HTML files you probably need to do some reverse engineering of the format before you actually dig for data.

I'm not a lawyer and I'm well aware that lawyer write things to protect their clients interests as broadly as possible. In the License Totem says "the Software or the Product". Both terms are more than a little ambiguous and the use of both implies that they are not the same. Perhaps "the Product" includes all the data files. Perhaps not. In the US reverse engineering a file format seems to be an acceptable practice. Certainly may large companies do it publicly all the time. I agree that working out file formats is a form of reverse engineering, but this may not be something that could be enforced in the US under the terms of the License agreement.

A fine line would be, if you Decompiled the Executable Binary file to determine how the data was read from the Models.lst file.

I agree and I don't know on which side of that line a judge would rule.

if I remember correctly companies like Microsoft and Oracle have argued very strongly that the internal formats of various files and message protocols used by their products are covered by the prohibitions on reverse engineering. When they have lost such arguments it was because of a special provison in the law that allows, in some circumstances, reverse engineering for the purposes of interfacing with other products.

Since there is very little law on the subject explicitly, a lot of the rulings have to do with industry expectations and whether a license has overreaching terms.

I have some friends who have acted as expert witnesses is reverse engineering cases. These were all about reverse engineering of source code. The winning argument often included either the presence of dead code in the defendant's product or a sub-optimal or erroneous sequence of commands
elfine
Joined in Jul 2017
223 投稿

Decoding models.lst

iStripperに関する全て
October 25, 2019, 40 アンサー
@TheEmu
@elfine - no it is not called data mining. Data mining is a different activity altogether and is applied to the process of getting nuggets of information from huge data repositories.

This is true by definition and in an industrial environement. What exactly people call data mining most a the case is the fact to get informations on some sort of data file and it's maintly used for games to make wiki and other 3rd party programs for those games. Sometimes games's compagnies give some little info sometimes they don't at all. So like I said it's tolerated. Decompiling or reverse enginering apply only to executable code. There is NO NEED to decompile a file based of text or pure binary data.

You can take the definition of data mining exactly in the same way to you use the word Haker, people commonly use that word to design a personne who generally do something illegal, it is to totally false. The real definition of the term Haker is someone who is a true expert in his domain, this can be informatic or anything else. The firsts personne called Haker was a MIT studient.

I could go further since you are talking about Microsoft, historically Windows was a bad copy from the Apple Os and Atari Gemdos (but Atari had the rights from Apple to make their own Os similar for the Atari ST). The first DOS version from Microsoft made with IBM was litterally copied from the Amiga DOS. Do you think they didn't used any decompiling method ? In same way Microsoft and many others used free opensource code to make their own formats, this could be considered as a *****.

The only fact is I can't manage my collection without using my own program because of a lack of function in the iStripper app, to do so I need to use some of the iStripper files and to know how to deal with them.
I'm not sharing or selling anything.
I do not blame Totem either because their application can not meet my expectations, but if I can help them improve it, I'll do it.

Sorry, it's a bit of a subject, but I wanted to explain it with these comparisons. Anyway I'm going to stop to argue on it... it's sterile, we'll never see things the same way.
celine
運営
Joined in Sep 2007
8232 投稿
TheEmu
Joined in Jul 2012
7424 投稿

Decoding models.lst

iStripperに関する全て
October 25, 2019, 40 アンサー
@Birger52

"Reverse engineering is taking apart an object to see how it works in order to duplicate or enhance the object."

Not what I'm doing.

That is indeed what you are doing, or rather what you or someone else did when you decoded the format of the file. The object in this case being a data file.

@elfine - no it is not called data mining. Data mining is a different activity altogether and is applied to the process of getting nuggets of information from huge data repositories.

@Wyldanimal

@Birger52 asking for information for his own personal use
does not ***** the terms of the T&C.

Asking for the information violates nothing, but decoding the file for yourself does ***** the terms and conditions which say that you may not do this under any circumstances. This includes personal use.

In both my previous posts on this I have said that strictly speaking this is a ***** of the terms and conditions - and I have also pointed out that Totem, like many other sofware companies, do not seem to mind,

With regard to reading a book, no that does not ***** any terms and conditions because one were imposed (over and above copyright) when you obtained the book.

With regard to user created scenes then again,
strictly speaking
, we were originally violating the terms and conditions when we tried to undersatnd how the .scn files worked but later Totem provided most of the infrmation themselves so it ceased to be a *****.

In practice Totem only care when we create and want to share "add on" products, though they would also care very much if someone did the equivalent of looking at and understanding the .cds files but with the .vghd files themselves and created a private program to play them.

Of course Totem take a sensible view of all this so small infractions are ignored and in practice there is no problem in rverse engineering the ***** files used by the app, but it helps to be aware of what we are doing rather than just pretend we are not doing it.
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